Becoming The Warden Part 3 | The Legacy and Legend That Is Burl Cain

[Bloody Angola theme]
Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody-
Woody: -Angola.
Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.
Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.
Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.
Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.
Jim: And I forgot my paper. Let me grab--[laughs] I got it right at the boom.

Woody: Oh, so my Patreon episode, I don't think I had any booms, the whole thing. Not that it matters, but I don't think I had any because it's raw and unedited. I had just a couple of delays while I was scrolling through shit, but it's nothing long.

Jim: Yeah, no big deal. [crosstalk]
Woody: I told the people, I said-- Hold on one second, I got to look at this.

Jim: All right. We are at Burl Cain's third episode, Woody Overton, what do you think about that?

Woody: Love. This is pure love. It's been a great series. Thank you all for your response. It's just a really special story, and we're not the only ones, Jim, that think this about Burl Cain. I want to play a little clip, if you don't mind, real quick that I found. I found this, it popped up in the Crew page this morning.

Jim: Absolutely.
Woody: It's just by a guy, evidently, it's a TV special or something that's coming on. And it

talks specifically about what Burl does. [clip begins]

Narrator: -is the most violent of all American prisons and the largest state prison. A Christian warden cleaned it up. No cursing, decent behavior, respect for guards, and respect for prisoners. And it became the least violent from the most violent. Most of the prisoners have a degree in theology. And you know why you don't know about this? Because the press is not interested in you knowing that a Christian using religious principles cleaned up a prison. That's the reason we don't know about this.

[clip ends]

Woody: [crosstalk] fireside chat that's going to be coming on. They have a full episode, whatever. And I really don't know who this guy is or anything, I just called it.

Jim: But he speaks the truth.

Woody: Everything that we've talked about, and you talked about the no cursing and how he tried to redo the culture and everything else.

Jim: That's right. And did so many great things there. And we left off last week with a neat little story about Barbara Walters Beige, one of his favorite people he ever had visit that would be considered a celebrity. But he also said in an interview that he did, he was asked, "What is one of your legacy things that you did at Angola relative to the structures that you built?" And he mentioned what some of you all may not be familiar with, which is the Alamo Church, they call it. You may be surprised that it is actually a perfect replica of the Alamo.

Woody: The real Alamo. Now, if you go to Alamo, San Antonio, now, it's like one wall and a little bit of stuff. It's just a tourist trap. But it was the real Alamo, which was a work in mission back in the day.

Jim: That's right. And the amazing thing, and what he's most proud of about that church is it cost taxpayers absolutely nothing. And the speed in which he built it, 50 volunteer inmates worked around the clock. They worked in 12-hour shifts to construct that 6000 square foot chapel from top to bottom in about 38 days.

Woody: 38 days. It's amazing.

Jim: Yeah. The Our Lady of Guadalupe Chapel is what it's officially known as. Although they call it the Alamo Church. It's steel framed, it has a stucco front façade. And it is, as we said, a replica of the San Antonio tourist attraction, which is the Alamo. The church includes seating for more than 200. It features painting, furniture, and stained glass windows that are all crafted by, you guessed it,-

Woody: Inmates.

Jim: -inmates. And it was amazing. The entire building, as I mentioned, was at no cost to taxpayers. More than $450,000 donated by Latin American businessmen, Jorge Valdez and Fernando Garcia.

Woody: And we actually talked about that in another episode, briefly. That's awesome.

Jim: The inmates, they constructed the entire building. They laid the brick, everything, the wiring, all of that done by inmates. And it was built on the prison's main camp. And actually, the 14th chapel built--[crosstalk]

Woody: Yeah. Part of Angola, my mom always said two things in South Louisiana, you never have to go far to find us a church and a bar room. Well, there's no bar rooms at Angola, but a whole heck of a lot of chapels or churches.

Jim: Yeah, that's a great point, actually, and very true. But one of his most proud structures ever built at Angola. And we're going to put a picture of it on the Facebook page. So, don't forget to follow that Bloody Angola podcast on Facebook. And we'll put a picture of that building. You can actually tour that building. Angola does tours and you can tour and actually see that building in person if you're local.

Woody: Y'all, if you're wondering, because convicts built the rodeo arena, which we'll talk about, and they built this church, and he had them do so much more projects, well, you might wonder about the security and how many people escape during Burl's time.

Jim: Well, it was a big problem before he got there.

Woody: Right. The biggest in the United States of America, even though it's landlocked and Mississippi River locked. But one of the not so surprising statistics about Angola during

Warden Cain's time was the dramatic reduction in escape attempts and escapes. So, y'all, we're going to read you some articles, and these are from the Morning Advocate, and the first one is dated January 25th in 1999.

"Angola, Louisiana. Roadblocks went up and the chase team, equipped with thermal detectors and night vision goggles, began a search for four convicted killers who bolted from Louisiana prison. But it was the sharp eyes of 15-year-old Matt Tibbett who fooled the inmate's plans after spotting two of the men Sunday while deer hunt alone. The ill-fated escape, which left one inmate dead and the other three in custody, began at 02:00 PM when the men, armed with two smuggled guns, took a prison maintenance worker hostage and left the prison grounds in a truck.

"The inmates made it through a gate at the 18,000-acre Louisiana State Penitentiary to a water tower, where they ditched the truck and tied up the maintenance supervisor with duct tape," Warden Burl Cain said. The foursome then fled on foot. It took only minutes for the hostage to free himself and alert the nearest guard post. "By then, the inmates had about a half hour a head start," Cain said. Law enforcement from surrounding areas immediately set up roadblocks. Prison's chase team, armed with night vision goggles, thermal detectors, and a pack of dogs, launched a recovery effort for the four men, each serving a life sentence for murder. Others monitored the Mississippi River, which borders the prison grounds to the east, while three helicopters searched from above.

About this time, 15-year-old Tibbett was deer hunting on his family's property and noticed two men sitting on the ground about 50 yards away. Not knowing about the prison break, he kept walking. A short while later, his brother-in-law, who had heard of the escape, met up with the team. The pair alerted law enforcement officials, and soon bloodhounds were on the trail of inmates, Roy McFall and Jerry Davis. Davis later said when McFall saw the dogs, he turned to him and said, 'I'm not going back to prison. They're about to catch us."

According to Cain, McFall, 40, then shot himself in the head and later died at the hospital. He had been serving a life sentence for first-degree murder in the June 1983 stabbing of a Texas woman. Davis, 39, was taken into custody without incident. The chase team then found and began following the second set of tracks. Donald Wooley, 35, Darrel Crider, 37, were found at 07:00 PM about 200 yards from where McFall and Davis had been huddling in the brush near the Tunica Bayou. The inmates surrendered without incident.

Cain said, "Prison officials would review the escape to finding the breakdowns in prison policy. 20 walkthrough metal detectors have already been ordered, which should prevent guns from being smuggled inside. We're going to have to really investigate and find out how that happened. We can't afford for that to happen, not at this prison."

Jim: [laughs] That is a crazy story.
Woody: He's legit on that. It is a crazy story. And I guarantee after they heard that one

gunshot and one guy saw the other guy blow his own head off, he's like, "Hmm, okay, I quit."

Jim: Yeah, "It's not fun anymore." So, I'm going to give you another one here. And this was on September 22nd of 2013. Two inmates escaped from Angola, captured hours later.

"Two inmates escaped from Angola prison, and they are back in custody following a multiagency response. Melvin Johnson, convicted on a rape from New Orleans, and Aaron Francois, convicted of a murder charge from Lafayette, escaped from prison during the early morning hours on Sunday. Johnson and Francois escaped from the exercise yard after they broke through the bottom of a fencing area. They utilized work gloves and a blue jean jacket to get through the razor wire located on the second fence. The Louisiana State Police and

West Feliciana Parish Sheriff's Office assisted with the search and confirmed the two men were taken back in custody shortly before 11:30 that day. Both men were in possession of a large quantity of pepper and roughly 30 bags of peanuts. They used the pepper in an attempt to stop dogs from being able to track their scent. As for the peanuts, that's what they plan to eat.

The inmates were then reported as running over an inner ring levee adjacent to the camp. The Angola's chase team, including the canine team, boat crew, and thermal imagery teams-" bet y'all didn't know there were that many teams.

Woody: Best in the world.

Jim: -"reported immediately, and surrounded the wooded area where the inmates were last seen. Warden Burl Cain said the inmates surrendered upon the orders of the staff, and no deadly force was employed during the apprehension. Both men are currently located at the prison medical center for evaluation and treatment."

How about that? Pepper and peanuts, Woody.

Woody: And that's the misnomer. And that's the best thing. People always try to do that with the pepper, but the peanuts part, definitely unique. And from January 30th, 2004, and this one's a little bit different.

"FBI agents have arrested a Compton, California man accused escaping from Louisiana State Penitentiary guards during a hospital visit more than 25 years ago."

Jim: Holy cow.

Woody: "57-year-old Frank Milsap is scheduled today to appear before a judge in California to say if he will voluntarily return to Louisiana to finish a 40-year armed robbery sentence. If he refuses, Louisiana fugitive hunter, Colonel Eric Sivula, says the state will begin formal extradition proceedings. Sivula says that the process usually takes about 30 days. Burl Cain, warden at Louisiana's maximum security state prison in Angola says that they want Milsap back. He says he wants inmates to know that if they run away, the state won't stop looking for them. Milsap was convicted of armed robbery in connection with the December 1971 hold up of a Baton Rouge loan company. He tried to escape a short time after he was taken into custody following that robbery, but a deputy thwarted the attempt. In August 1973, he escaped from a guard while he was with four other inmates undergoing treatment at Earl K Long Hospital in Baton Rouge," which is no longer there. "But he was recaptured, but escaped again on June 22nd, 1978, by overpowering two guards on the ward for prisoners at the same hospital. Sivula says not all of Milsap's 25 years away from Louisiana was spent in freedom. He served at least 13 years in prison for murder."

Jim: How about that?

Woody: Right. That's crazy. That was before AFIS and all y'all, when they could run and know they had warrants. "He was convicted and jailed under the name, Joe Forrest. Sivula says his department was working with the FBI, recently developed information, and found fingerprints that showed Forrest was, in fact, Milsap.

Jim: That is an amazing story.
Woody: That is crazy. I never knew about that.

Jim: Absolutely crazy, and really hard one for me to find and dig up. But I'll tell you, the thing that blows my mind about that is this dude escape-- and look, we get messages from y'all all the time, and I was so glad I came across this, because you'll ask, "Has anyone ever actually successfully escaped Angola and not been recaptured?" Well, there have been a few, and we'll give you those at some point. But here's one that got away for 25 years.

Woody: 25 years.
Jim: Actually got imprisoned at another prison. Woody: For another murder.
Jim: For another murder.

Woody: Of course, an alias. But again, that was so early as AFIS or whatever the acronym stands for, something to do with the national fingerprint database. When you get booked in, they run it. If you give them a fake name, your fingerprints are coming back on that. Back then, they would still roll their fingerprints, they had it on cards. They just filed them away in a national database.

Jim: Yeah. There was no computer to really like Woody says, put that through a database. But the amazing thing is had that guy just basically said, "I'm going clean, I've escaped from prison," he probably never would have got caught.

Woody: In Compton, California.
Jim: Compton, California. You know what that's famous for? Eazy-E and N.W.A and all that. Woody: That's right.
Jim: How about that for-
Woody: Original. [crosstalk]

Jim: -50-year-old crowd. Y'all know what I'm talking about. [laughs] So, that was some escapes for you. And now, we're going to tell you another story me and Woody know very well we actually told this story on our live. But Warden Cain was asked what his darkest hour at Angola was. And without hesitation, he said his darkest moment was a hostage situation involving three correctional officers that actually resulted in the murder of Captain David Knapps. We know this one well, Woody.

Woody: Right. We did cover it in detail in our live shows. It's a horrible, horrible story. And now, the training academy is named for Captain Knapps. And we won't go to all the details of it because we'll do it again when we take the lives on the road because it's that powerful story. We were fortunate enough to have the entire case file.

Jim: Yeah. And I mean the real case.

Woody: Yeah, the real deal. But the hostages were, Captain David Knapps, Lt. Douglas Chaney, and Sergeant Reddia Walker. And they were taken hostage by inmates Jeffrey Clark, David Mathis, Barry Edge, Joel Durham, David Brown and Robert Carley. And Captain Knapps, y'all, during that hostage situation/escape attempt, he was bludgeoned to death with a mallet, y'all, with a paint mallet. Jim can tell you about that. But we did this story in our first Bloody Angola Live. And we're going to take that story on the road because it's too important. There's just so much to it.

Jim: Yeah, there really is.
Woody: I [crosstalk] it was his worst day.

Jim: Yeah. And that would take hours to get into what exactly happened. But the gist of it was these inmates took over Camp D, what they call the Education Building in Camp D, and it wreaked a lot of havoc. They had it planned out pretty good. And they ended up with these three hostages. At the end of the day, Burl Cain being Burl Cain went in there, there's a whole story we're not going to tell you yet on that, but he ended up getting control of that situation. That'd be the best way to put that.

Woody: Absolutely.

Jim: And two of those men to this day are on death row.

Woody: Right. As they should be.

Jim: As they should be. So, that was his darkest hour. No surprise there. Now, a lot of people want us to do an episode, and we will, on the Angola Rodeo.

Woody: Probably has to be a series. At least to two-part, because that is the thing Angola is most famous for, besides at one time being the bloodiest prison in America. Angola, the rodeo is just a massive event.

Jim: It's huge. Obviously, we record this out of Louisiana. And when it's the third weekend in April or getting close to October, that's what everybody's talking about.

Woody: Because it's every weekend in October and one weekend in April.

Jim: Yeah. And the rodeo existed before Burl Cain was warden. But it totally changed when Warden Cain got there. And what I mean is it became what we call in the business profitable. [laughs]

Woody: Right. Very profitable. Huge money.

Jim: He really transformed it. It became a self-sustaining event. Before that, they would actually have losses on the books. One of the things with the rodeo that I can tell you right off the bat, and I've been a couple of times that I really enjoyed, were the arts and crafts side of that.

Woody: And we talked about Clifford Etienne, The Black Rhino. He's a master painter and he paints and sells his to the public during that. But all the convicts, they build the stuff all yearlong and they sell it, and the money, they get to keep, most of them send to the families to help with shoes or whatever it may be.

Jim: That's right. And it's a huge financial windfall for the state. There are advertisers now, there are contracts for cattle. The inmates almost fight to have the opportunity to be in this thing, and they actually give incentive to the inmates, and that is cash incentive. Look, what incentivizes people to jump in there with a bull? Probably money. And so, $500 in some cases to the winners of the rodeo. They have certain events, y'all.

Woody: When you're making $0.05 an hour and you make [crosstalk] for the rest of your life, $500 is like $50 million.

Jim: Absolutely. And they have two interesting events that are really intriguing. One of them is called convict poker. Explain what that is.

Woody: Where the convicts sit at a table like they're playing poker and they let a bull out and the bull comes in and basically, whoever's sitting last and doesn't get up and run or get hurt or whatever wins the money.

Jim: Yeah. And look, it is like crazy, y'all. I mean, there's a freaking bull in there bigger than Texas, and there's inmates sitting around a table, and they can't move.

Woody: When Jim talks about the contract bringing the cattle in, this professional, like PBR, Professional Bull Riding Association bulls are coming in for this.

Jim: That's right.

Woody: Back when I was a kid, now I'm sure it's changed now because of the federal regulations, etc., but I remember my dad telling me about convicts love to participate in this rodeo and they didn't care if they got hurt or not, which is what made it such a great spectacle, because they got hurt and then they got to lay up an infirmary with air conditioner in a soft bed, whatever, for a few weeks out of their life sentence.

Jim: Yeah. And look, while we're on that subject, since you brought that up because we're all unscripted sometimes, but you may be surprised to know that especially in Angola, where you work in the fields all the time, you're all the time out in the heat in the summer in South Louisiana, these guys would intentionally hurt themselves sometimes just to get out of work. I mean, that was a free week in the infirmary if they intentionally busted their ankle up.

Woody: There's a charge on their books now. It's called malingering. If you're caught either faking an illness or hurting yourself to get out of work, you can be arrested for it.

Jim: Yeah. Another event that they put on that's pretty cool is called Guts and Glory. They actually take a card, and they tape it or glue it or however they put it on the bull's head.

Woody: On its forehead--[crosstalk]
Jim: [laughs] Yeah. And the whole goal of that is the convict has to pull the card off.

Woody: Whoever is stupid enough to get close enough, however they do it, whoever gets the card, they get 500 bucks.

Jim: 500 buck, which is like $5 million to free people.

Woody: That rodeo is so huge, y'all, there will be cars lined up for miles to get checked in and everything. But at its peak during Cain's tenure, the rodeo was grossing over $450,000 a day.

Jim: A day.
Woody: Do that times four in October. [crosstalk]
Jim: Well, times eight because it's two days each weekend. Woody: So, you're right.
Jim: Millions.

Woody: It's a lot of money. A lot of that would go towards into the general inmate fund for indigents or projects to improve different things for and stuff like that.

Jim: That's right. Burl Cain's big thing was, "Hey, this is money that we're generating that now taxpayers don't have to generate." We've told you all this since the beginning of Bloody Angola, that one of the issues with running a prison, especially at Warden Cain's level, was nobody wants to pay for prisoners. Your state government and your legislators have to justify to people why money is being put out for convicts. It's just human nature. We don't want to have to pay for somebody that breaks the law. But this is one of the ways that Warden Cain was able to generate that money without having to go to the public because look, everything from what Woody just mentioned to pay raises, all those things can be generated from extra events like the rodeo.

Woody: It also helped control the convicts. Meaning that to make trusty, you had to be there for 10 years. To participate in the rodeo is the same thing. You had to be trusty level or above. And all year long, they look forward to the rodeo. And they know if they get in trouble, they're not going to get to participate in the rodeo.

Jim: That's exactly right. And what a successful event, probably out of everything Warden Cain did from a fundraising standpoint, the most successful program he ever had while he was there. And it's continued on to this day.

Woody: Because we're going to tell you some stories another day about what they call prison enterprises, and that's how everything they grow there, from vegetables to actually, they milk there and they package the milk and it goes to all the state prison underneath prison enterprises in little cartons, and that's what they drink with their meals. He's done a shit ton of other things too, but this, for Angola itself, and to be divided up and to give these people incentive to behave and all that.

Jim: Woody, it used to never seem to fail. Genius. Woody: Genius.
Jim: Genius idea.
Woody: [crosstalk] -Burl Cain being the genius.

Jim: Yeah. So, we're going to give you a little bit of backstory here on this next thing because it needs to be mentioned and then it needs to be mentioned what occurred with it. On January 1st of 2016, Warden Cain resigned his position at Angola. Now, there was some controversy related to this resignation that regarded really some real estate dealings in which the government, they felt it was maybe unethical that there were some issues there and an incident in particular with the Angola rodeo, which we just talked about, where a longtime vendor, he basically was supplying livestock to the rodeo. He had done this for a long time. Well, he accused Warden Cain of trying to shake him down. He insisted donations to the rodeo to get that livestock contract. Then when the vendor said, "No, I'm not going to do that," Warden Cain changes the livestock specifications, which basically reopened it up for bid. And this guy's accusation was that was payback for not wanting to donate this money. So, it's important to note, all right, I'm noting this right here. They did an exhaustive investigation on this. Everything from local government to state government.

Woody: And news media and everybody else.

Jim: Yeah. He was exonerated from any wrongdoing. That's the bottom line regardless of anybody's opinion on that. Now, I do want to play a short clip right here. And this was Warden Cain shortly after he announced his retirement going on Channel 2 News, which is a local news company.

Woody: You got to love the way he talks. Jim: Oh, God.
Woody: He's such a character.
Jim: So, you're going to hear that right here. [clip begins]

Reporter: Surprise many in Louisiana and around the country. Boss Burl is retiring. Burl Cain, the longtime Warden Angola, is leaving the farm at the end of the year. And Warden Cain joins us this morning. Great to see you.

Burl: Good morning.
Reporter: Thanks for being here. Why retiring? Why now?

Burl: Well, why now brings up a whole another subject. I mean, we kind of got into a bind here with the election and so forth, so there's a lot of dynamics to it. And we'll go into that on your other program.

Reporter: Uh-huh. But there were some reports in the newspaper about possible deals or shady deals with real estate deals involving maybe someone with connection to inmates. Did that have anything to do with your decision?

Burl: No, that didn't really because it was more to do with the election and so forth because Representative Havard thought I got somebody else in the race, and it got a lot of dynamics going there. And so, he was real upset and got me to call him to try to get him out. That started wheel rolling, and I think then some of that even came in the paper, probably got some information from there and then it started going. Everything in the paper was seven years old and older. Nothing was criminal. I've been looked at forever. Everybody in the world investigated us and so we're still there. But no, there was no problem with all that. It's just that it keeps on coming and coming and coming. So, it causes-- you want it to stop. So, if it means you need to leave to stop, you stop. But it just kept going.

Reporter: I know you wanted to set the record straight. So given those reports, given what has happened, have you done anything illegal or unethical?

Burl: No. If I had, I wouldn't be sitting here with you, and I would be in real trouble. I'm not in trouble at all. And like I say, I mean it started with me calling a man to try to get him out of the race, and I couldn't get him out of the race. And so then, Representative Havard was real angry about that and antagonized and it goes back to his family because they used to have the rodeo contract at Angola and I changed the specs and they lost that. And that was a Klein brother. He's their son-in-law. So, then that got going, so he was angry. That's how politics is. And then, you get the momentum going, the paper picks up and here we go. So, we got on a whirlwind.

Reporter: Burl, are you concerned that there may be some sort of federal investigation that could come from this?

Burl: Well, it couldn't because he's accusing me of breaking a rule. And it was seven years ago, and I didn't break the rule. It's a nonprofessional relationship. It was very professional, transparent, and in the courthouse, recorded, so there was nothing wrong. And plus, the inmates they're talking about had been gone from Angola for two years and nine months. Wasn't even in the prison, so it didn't even count.

Reporter: You've been warden since 1995, looking back on your tenure at Angola, biggest accomplishment?

Burl: Seminary. Biggest accomplishment is bringing God to the prison and the inmates changing morally because our legacy is going to be bricks and mortar. It's not bricks and mortar. It's going to be what's in the hearts of those men. Like today, there's two legislators from Michigan there and two people from the governor's office, and they're going to do the seminary in Michigan. And it's in Texas, in other states. Yesterday, I was in Florida, the Justice Summit, talking about what we did in Angola. So, everybody all over the country liked what we did. Very popular doing it. So, this is a good time, I guess, to leave. But we're on top of the world when it comes to corrections. Secretary Le Blanc has done a great job, and I just hope they don't keep on banning him because it's not fair. He's a good secretary and he should be there.

Reporter: Something else that you've done that we've worked with you on is building prison chapels. I think you said you worked on like eight different projects at prison.

Burl: We raised the money for eight chapels, and we also did research on the seminary. We proved it worked. We're going to have that data. There's a book coming out in July.

Reporter: How does that make a difference?

Burl: What you do is moral, moral rehabilitation. Criminals take, take, take and you got to teach them to give. You teach them skills and trade. You don't put morality in them. You just made a smarter criminal. So, we realized that it's pretty simple, but nobody thinks of that. So then, the moral component comes from the seminary, we don't care what religion, we're just looking for the morality. So moral rehabilitation.

Reporter: So, what's next for Boss Burl?
Burl: Oh, I have no idea. It's like I say, I'm going to be a cat and get on my feet. But I don't

know. I got some things I got to do.

Reporter: You got to write a book. You really need to write a book.

Burl: Well, I hope so. I hope it sells.

[laughter]

Reporter: Well, we appreciate you joining us this morning--

[clip ends]

Jim: Now so, Warden Cain, as you heard in that clip, his reasonings for retiring and moving on. And look, this is a guy that ran the largest prison in the United States.

Woody: And could have run the Department of Corrections for the whole state of Louisiana. He chose not to. He was focused, he was committed to Angola, he did it. And like all good

things, his time came to an end. And you can't blame him. I think it was a combination of things, the investigation and him being sickened by that, basically. And he just thought it was time to move on. But didn't make him any less desirable.

Jim: No, absolutely.
Woody: He's still healthy. He still wants to work. You've never met a guy that worked like this

dude can work.

Jim: Yeah, you mentioned that one thing that I really respect about Warden Cain was his longtime friend, a guy that used to be a subordinate of his was actually the one running the Louisiana prisons at that time. And Warren Cain thought he's doing it--

Woody: [crosstalk]

Jim: Yes. And Warden Cain thought he's doing a pretty darn good job. "Why do I want to take over that? He's doing fine." So, he never even approached it. And it was interesting because Jimmy Le Blanc went from being his subordinate to being his boss, essentially over that time period. But I don't think they ever looked at it that way.

Woody: I can assure you. Jimmy Le Blanc always had the respect for Burl Cain.
Jim: Absolutely. But, Woody, when you're a stud like that and you've ran prisons for so

long--

Woody: It's like Tom Brady retiring and they still got people that want him to come another season.

Jim: That's right. All the other states are like, "Hmm, free agent. And we need help over here in our prisons."

Woody: Right. One of the most infamous prisons besides bloody Angola was Parchman in Mississippi. And you talk about the same type of thing, the farm life and the history and everything else. And we'll tell some stories about another day. That's just one part of the Mississippi prison system.

Jim: At that time of Warden Cain's retirement was definitely, probably leading the nation in issues with prisons was Mississippi.

Woody: So, what does Mississippi do? They're like, "Hmm. Let's get Tom Brady out of retirement. Let's get Burl Cain." Not only to come in and run one prison, but to do what he did at Angola on a massive scale throughout their prison system. So, in January of 2021, Warden Cain again joined the Department of Corrections, but this time it was not in the state of Louisiana, but the state of Mississippi, but as Commissioner overseeing the entire state, which has had a huge, huge troubled history in corrections.

Jim: Yeah. And they needed him, and he answered the call. And here's the interesting thing. When Cain was appointed, the Governor appoints a commissioner of prisons. This is over the entire system. This isn't just over one prison.

Woody: Yeah. All the prisons.

Jim: When Cain was appointed, some criticized Mississippi Governor Reeves for the decision, considering the allegations that I told you about earlier. And some believe that that was the reason he left as Warden of Angola. So, the Governor had something to say about

that. And he said, I'm going to quote him here. "The search committee was aware of the accusations. I personally was aware of the accusations. And we did extensive research. Here's the key. Once the politics were removed, the allegations and accusations were basically dropped. I have full confidence in Burl Cain's ability to change the culture at the Mississippi Department of Corrections. I have absolute confidence that he will do so in a way that will make all Mississippians proud. And I have zero reservations in appointing him as the Commissioner of the Department of Corrections." You can't ask for a better slap on the back than that.

Woody: Absolutely correct. And look, we're going to do a Patreon bonus episode with me, you, and Kelly Jennings from Unspeakable Podcast, because she and I both worked for Burl Cain before. And I'll tell you, this is just only what got reported. He was under fire his entire career by the haters that said he did this and did that, and it was never proven. We'll put that up. That'd just be part of the patron bonus episode, which we're going to drop for y'all.

Jim: Let me say this before you go on. Here's the thing, and I know a lot of people listening can relate to this. Anytime you're good at anything in life, you're going to have haters.

Woody: Absolutely.
Jim: You're going to have people that are jealous. You're going to have people that want to

be where you are.

Woody: Especially when you're in the public eye.

Jim: That's right. And they're going to try to tear you down rather than build you up.

Woody: And that's happened, and it happens in everything from professional sports to us as podcasters.

Jim: That's it.
Woody: Y'all never hear those stories either because they're not worth mentioning.

Jim: They're not worth mentioning. But it is a part of life. And to be able to handle that the way he did over all of those years in Louisiana, to me, was really impressive.

Woody: Right.
Jim: So, I wanted to make that point.

Woody: Yeah, absolutely. So, what happens? Warden Cain is now the warden or the boss man over all Mississippi state prisons.

Jim: And guaranteed the convicts heard about it.

Woody: Oh, yeah, they knew he was coming. I think a lot of them would have been happy. And they're finally like, "Holy shit. We're not going to have maggots in our food and not getting raped and killed every night," and stuff like that. So, what does Burl Cain do? It's hard to improve on, almost perfection. He improved himself over the years at Angola, from the first execution, how he improved those afterwards because he's a father. It's like us in the podcast world, everything, we make mistakes--

Jim: Strive to get better.

Woody: Learn from and strive to get better. So, he did the same thing. He brought his game plan and his mission number one, Cain said, was to get staffing up to speed. So, he immediately went to every prison across the state to do that. And another key piece of Cain's strategy is the faith-based building, a new chapel inside the prison walls. Y'all, we played you all that clip earlier, whatever that show is, we'll put it in the show notes about how he turned Angola around basically with the faith base. But Cain said this regarding an escape of two convicts shortly after he took over Mississippi and this mission to alleviate gangs, which is a huge problem in Mississippi prisons.

Let me digress for a second. In Louisiana, way back when I got asked about it when I was in college and I had already been a correctional officer and it was a corrections class. I told the professor after class that this is wrong, this wrong, this wrong. Burl Cain had been my warden, but the textbook said that the prison gangs were everything. And then, they were in other prisons, but not at DCI where Burl Cain was, because they classified when you came in, and you were Blood or you're Crip, they didn't even put you together on the same yards. They stripped it. I mean, they took pictures, your photographs. He was very focused on that when gangs were first becoming relevant. So, he did it in Mississippi too, right?

Jim: That's right, he did, and recognized the issue. And look, in Angola or really in the Louisiana prison system, gangs became nonexistent, primarily off of his belief that once you separate those leaders, the problem ceased to exist. Well, these two convicts, they escape shortly after he takes over in Mississippi, and he was commented on that after they were caught. And he says, "Well, there's two of them in a car that ought to be sleeping tonight in Colorado. There's another one going to be on a car in about four days." It's going to be in a Florence prison where El Chapo is in Colorado.

Woody: Supermax.

Jim: Now we are referencing supermax. "So, if they want to keep being gang leaders, they can do it from a distance because they ain't going to do it here." So, chop the head off the snake. That's classic Burl Cain. What they going to do? "Meanwhile, we're going to have all these moral programs and so forth, where you can do good with our reentry program and so forth. Anyway, we don't even want to admit that we have much of a gang problem. There's one more place that we're going to be working really hard on, and that is we've got to do some serious investigation. But we know it and we know where they are, and the gang members are identified. We've had 6500 and a few now. Now, we have only a few, 2400 or so, because people are getting out of the gangs and we're enabling them to do it."

Another thing that he did that was really special in Mississippi when he took over was he encouraged letters from the inmate. Whether they were asking for help or for airing grievances, he said he'd respond to each one of them with handwritten notes. Thousands so far.

Woody: Genius.

Jim: He was also asked, "What about the deplorable conditions?" Look, Mississippi was like Angola back in the day, even up till today. And he said, "They're not there. They're gone." With Cain's history of cleaning up prisons, Woody and I don't doubt that.

Woody: Not for a second.
Jim: I know he just lives to do it, right? [crosstalk] Woody: Yeah.

Jim: And here he is now, he's 80 plus years old, still running that prison, baby. The whole system.

Woody: Yeah. Hey, real quick, I'm going to add this in. I was talking to when I went down the road to go fishing, one of the guys has a camp across from my buddy's camp, used to work for Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office. And I was asked about the Greyhound prison because he was there, boots on the ground after Katrina. I told him about Burl Cain. Then, he was saying, "The front door's unlocked. You ain't worried about them escaping? He was like, "I got a machine gun right here. I got a shotgun right here. Let them come out if they want." He said, "You have no idea. Burl Cain ran that place."

Jim: Come on.
Woody: He said, "We used to bring them in to book them, and there was no doubt that if

they did anything, they were going to kill them."

Jim: Yeah, he was serious business. And I had a friend that I was actually talking to yesterday, he owns a security company. I'm talking mass security, AI cameras and things like this. And they primarily focus on prisons and schools and these big projects. And he met with Burl Cain. He's met with him several times. I said, "Man, you got any funny stories or anything?" And he said, "Well, the first time I met with him, he asked me a question." And I said, "What was the question?" He said, "He asked me if I was a pig or if I was a hog." And I said, "What should I be?" And he said, "Well, you always want to be the hog, because pigs get slaughtered." [laughs]

Woody: Pigs get slaughtered. This reminded me that pigs get slaughtered, hogs get fat.

Jim: Yes. I asked him. I said, "What did you think when you met him?" And he said, "Man, he is one of those people that he walks in a room-- if you've never seen Burl Cain, he is not what you think physically. But within about 30 seconds, you know who's in charge." [laughs]

Woody: [crosstalk] And he's going to show you-- but he just gets on everyone's level. Jim: Yeah.
Woody: Even though he's in charge, he gives you--[crosstalk]
Jim: He's real.

Woody: People think this is backwards, but it's not. Trust is given, it's not earned. He's going to give you that trust, and he's going to trust that you go out there and do that job. And if you screw it up, then you screw it up.

Jim: That's right.
Woody: As any good leader should, but it was a great story. Jimmy did a phenomenal job.

Jim: One of my favorites, and I'm sure you too, there's three series really that stick out to me, but two that we've recorded, and that is the Brent Miller story and this one. These two series for me, I have absolutely enjoyed and learning about this.

Woody: [crosstalk] I don't believe it's outside of the realm of possibility that one day we'll get to have him.

Jim: You're on the same wavelength as me because I know for a fact there are people listening right now that have his ear.

Woody: Yeah, absolutely. Just tell him he's got our mad respect, and we never throw any shade.

Jim: That's right.
Woody: [crosstalk] -we did him an iota of justice to the man, the legend that he is because

he'll always have my respect.

Jim: Yeah. And have him reach out to us. Just shoot us a message on Facebook or you can if you want to set something up because we'd love to sit him down and let him just kind of tell some of his story.

Woody: We'll go to Mississippi.

Jim: Yeah. We'll go to Mississippi. We'll do whatever he needs us to do. But we love to talk to Warden Cain and just let him tell some of his story and be Warden Cain. And let these people see this man for who he is.

Woody: And get to hear him [crosstalk] personality.
Jim: That's right. That'd be fire. So, we appreciate y'all listening.

Woody: And our Patreon members, we're going to drop an addition to this, to Burl Cain from two people who have worked for him directly, which is myself and Kelly Jennings, who has the Unspeakable podcast. Y'all go check that out. And Jim Chapman is going to do what he does, is the research and guide the conversation. So, Patreon members, that's coming. If you want to be a Patreon member and you're not, that's our subscribers all and we have different levels and tiers of it. But you can go to patreon.com/bloodyangola.

Jim: Bloody Angola podcast, I believe it is.

Woody: Just type in Bloody Angola podcast on Patreon, and it'll pull it up. But, y'all, absolutely make the show run. And we thank you, we love and appreciate y'all. If you can't afford to be one a patron member, we get that too and we love and appreciate, y'all, also.

Jim: And let me say this on that episode. Woody mentioned Kelly, she's kind of like a third host for us. Anytime we need Kelly Jennings-

Woody: She's always there for us.
Jim: -is always there for us. And as known, she's kind of getting a little moniker as the

female Woody Overton. And she really is.
Woody: Huge compliment for me.
Jim: If Woody was prettier, [laughs] he would be Kelly.
Woody: She is definitely a pistol, and I can't wait to see where she's going.
Jim: Yeah, check that out too. Unspeakable: A True Crime Podcast By Kelly Jennings.

Woody: Yeah. Hey, I've actually been on her podcast too, so there's an episode with me on it.

Jim: Yeah, go check that out for sure. Woody: [crosstalk] -Chapman produced.

Jim: Yeah, that's right. So, that'll be coming to you next week. So, look for that, Patreon members only. So, if you want to hear that interview with Woody and Kelly Jennings, join Patreon. Also want to mention that we've got some exciting stuff coming up in the future. I actually came across, and Woody's probably getting sick of me texting him but--[crosstalk]

Woody: That was just-- [crosstalk]

Jim: I have, y'all the Angolites from the 50s, 60s. And Angolite for those of you that have heard of us talk about that, that's a prison magazine. But the special thing about the 50s and 60s is that when it was mostly unedited. Meaning that they didn't hold back on what they said as much as they may do nowadays. Nowadays, it probably gets vetted by 50 people in the correctional system. Back then, it did not. I have those. And we're going to do some episodes where we actually cover those Angolites and you all are going to absolutely love it. And look, Woody Overton's grandfather, all over some of those Angolites.

Woody: Absolutely. This is really the Angolite, the magazine before it started really kind of getting censored.

Jim: Yeah, that's right.
Woody: I mean, they got some crazy shit in there.

Jim: Oh yeah, they do. And it's funny we did an episode that I know you all loved. They got a ton of play. It was called Old Wooden Ears. And he was the editor back in those days. So, it's really special, really cool. We're going to be bringing you that. We're going to be bringing you all kinds, of course, the stories that you used to from Angola. But we really appreciate all of you all listening, all of your support. Patreon members, we could not do any of this without all of you.

Look, Real Life Real Crime Daily and Real Life Real Crime, which are the other podcasts that we're involved with, are both just absolutely on fire as well. And I know there may be some people on here that haven't had the opportunity to partake in those podcasts. So, check those out if not. And if you know someone that listens to Real Life Real Crime Daily and Real Life Real Crime may not have partaken in Bloody Angola, please encourage that. We say it all the time, sharing is caring, but it really is. We can't grow without people telling.

Woody: It's how it works. Hey, we've grown phenomenally, only because y'all keep telling other people and liking and sharing and we appreciate, y'all.

Jim: That's right. So, we appreciate that. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.
Jim: Your host of Bloody-
Woody: Angola.

Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.

Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prisons. Jim and Woody: Peace.
Jim: [chuckles]